Dark's WIP

[Darkmessiah]

no worries MG. If u ever need some advice on zenithal lighting give us a shout, its a pretty straight forward idea, but not so easy to execute

[Grail]

I've been trying to get this zenithal lighting technique down as I've actually tried it on my Zeta Evolve.  I guess it just takes practice to get it down as go as you do it.

Not sure if you already know this ?..but somebody probably doesn't so I figure I'll yammer    
It does take practice.. still working on that.. but.. Zenithal lighting is also Modulation in the armor world.
A good method is to imagine (or use) real world lighting, and paint from your dark shadows up to your lights
using color gradients so it isn't just black to a color.

A great way to see this easily and have it right next to you while you model/practice, is this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Paint-Citadel-Miniatures-Rick-Priestley/dp/1841543667
(Not sure why it's so expensive here?, I got one pretty cheap)  It REALLY explains the technique well with accurate pics.
Even though the book is mostly hand painting, it's worth it, as you can take the technique right from hand painting through airbrushing.

I don't have the link handy but Mig modeling videos are pretty spectacular for this too.
Even shows you how to maintain air brushes and use pigments.

Also, I noticed in the gundam world, shading sometimes is opposite, which may also throw you off?
Sometimes people paint darks on the edges where there would, in reality, be bright specular/gradient type light.
I say stylized is great. Anybody should do what they like... but in Darks for example, his light direction is fairly accurate all around.

By the way, this blue gradient is also looking pretty sick spectacular. Really nice highlights Dark.
Nice like ice.

[Darkmessiah]

cheers grail :) iv been surprised how smooth iv been able to get things using my airbrush, yay for large flat surfaces!

having read through ur post, theirs a couple of things I dont quite agree with. colour modulation, iv got migs dvd for it here and the way they describe it is you shift you colour tones to draw attention to certain parts of the model, although u do get similar gradient effects, it doesnt really reflect realistic lighting. the other is the GW how to paint book, iv actually got that copy of it from back in the day, its decent for beginners but it doesnt mention realistic light, the eavy metal teams style is actually quite anti zenithal lighting, they highlight models with a layer or two and a edge highlight, its a very unrealistic style

good zen light ref for me would be

Jeremie Bonamant Pre-Umbrage aka the easy way to find ur zenithal lighting
Jeremie Bonamant Athela
Volomir
Jose aka JMPN
Allan Carrasco

And prob the most relevant is Aliaume's wip iv linked to the page he starts a forge world tank paint job, he is a fantastic painter and applies a zenithal style to vehicles better than any i know, here is a link to his cmon gallery



 

[Will Vale]

Thanks for all the links, there's some great stuff in there.

I wouldn't call zenithal lighting realistic either though - IMO it's an artistic choice and it can create very heavily stylised lighting.

If you look at a tank under the light, what matters is the angle of the surface to the light (and your eye) for diffuse lighting, and the angle and relative position for specular (shiny) lighting. The graduated shading of flat panels (light falloff across the surface) is something you'd only see in reality with a point source very close to the top of the model (so the falloff curve would be steep) or with very heavy fog attenuating the light :)

It still looks cool, it's just the realism claim I don't agree with. Your Imperator is different though - that largely has graduation on the curved surfaces (where the angle changes across the surface) and where things appear from shadows cast by the upper parts of the model. Very clever stuff - I reckon it's *much* better than the tank gallery you linked to.

I was thinking the other day that it's funny how we often try to photograph our models in super-neutral lightbox conditions, then paint them so that they look strongly lit - it's like the two things are fighting. It does work though - maybe because we're substituting our cool baked lighting for boring old natural lighting?

Will

[Darkmessiah]

its a bit of a difficult one isnt it will

the whole idea with zenithal lighting is to try and paint light in a more realistic manner, if you look at classic art where its come from its used to great effect to create realism, its applied to great effect in the illusion of trompe l'oeil, the issues start to mount up when you to apply the technique to something so small.
For a 28mm mini to have contrast so it can stand out you have to exaggeration and stretch the highlights and the shadows until its no longer realistic, its just somethin you have to do to get a nice looking model. I linked Aliaume's stuff not because I thought it was realistic, but because I find his stuff more realistic than alot of the tanks and GK i see (and i love his stylised paintjobs ), his lighting is very exaggerated and stylised but at least he is working with a light source, alot of finished GK I see tend to have the same light value from top to bottom.
for me personally i want to try and find a balance between realistic and overly stylised and am hoping I can do that with the contemptor :)

one reference I did miss out on and it prob the does strike the balance between is Industria Mechankia's stuff, if you look at the 3D and alot of the artwork they are zenithally lit, The Rook I think is a good example :)

iv actually got the stylised vs realistic issue myself at the moment, the left shoulder pad is quite flat, theirs little difference in height on the top panel between the front and the back (a slight slope) and then theirs a big drop, if i was to paint it realistically the top would be quite flat and then the back would be very dark, that unfortunately wouldnt look very good and wouldnt match the rest of the paintjob, however if I go the opposite way and create a large gradient their it will look unrealistic.
had a chat with a friend of mine last night and here is a (very!) rough mockup of what we agreed would look right

Dark's WIP

if youve got any other ideas on how to paint the shoulder please do share :)

[Grail]

Those are great links, thanks!  
I totally agree with both of you even if you both are waaay too obsessed with semantics      

I think both of your points have a lot of merit. MIG dvds for example. I have them too and yes, the modulation description is presented in the way you mentioned. I just believe it's a good way to help somebody get on their way to doing their own method. 
After watching the Jeremie Bonamant video, pretty much looks exactly like modulation techniques to me though?

Eavy metal miniature book is beginner,stylized, etc, but one of the few books out there that you can really see what's going on for people that don't know a place to start. I also agree with Will in that Zenithal isn't realistic lighting really either. I think it's all kind of stylized.
Which is also why I referenced some of the items in my post.
For example..

I also have a slightly different opinion about the 3d render stuff on you mentioned on IM. None of that is zenithal anything really.  
It does strike a balance though. like.. (it must look real, even if it's cheated, but must also look cool, even if you must cheat it.)

3D is usually several layers of baked in textures simulating rgb, specular, ambient occlusion, diffuse, etc.. then, literally,
a real world lighting setup is created in 3d. Can be anything from 1 crappy spotlight, to a simple but effective Global Illumination setup using the renderer of choice. 
The grey shaded renders you are seeing on those sights are often simply the occlusion shader only, or occlusion and GI.  
You COULD argue that you can paint zenithal into your textures though, with some software packages.

Back on track. I do love the icy smooth blue gradient. I could give less of a crapithal how it's technically defined, but I do love it    

ON that note. Time for me to kick my own ass for nerding out like that, and get back to modeling  

PS. Check out Ricks site if you haven't already. This guy can paint some convincing everything. I love his stuff.
http://dragonstoothminiatures.net

Cheers guys.

  

[Darkmessiah]

The mig dvds are very good and Id certainly recommend em, the colour modulation am struggling to see the similarities with zenithal lighting but you guy will know alot more about modulation, so ill happily conceded on that one 

the zen lighting, it might now always be used in a ultra realistic way, but the idea that you choose a light source(s) and you try and paint the lights and shadows to reflect the direction that the light source is coming from, for me its the most realistic way I have found to describe how light interacts with a model, if you guys know any alternative techniques id love to hear about em 

as for the rook, how would you describe the lighting on it? for me its been lit with a single light source from above and the lights and shadows reflect, so it looks like zenithal lighting to me, however ur obviously far more nerdier that me when it comes to 3D programs so am quite happy to concede on this one as well 

also does rick post on the forum grail? theirs some really cool stuff in his gallery, would be well worth having a gander at his wip :)

[Grail]

No need to concede. Only " the need for speed "    Apparently I have been watching Top Gun again..

I think in terms of painting models and such, your rules/definitions of zen are fine.  I don't think there is a different way to describe zen/your painting technique, and I'm not a workflow warrior, so I think what you are doing and describing is good. The results speak for themselves and all done your stuff looks " lit", which is what I define as Zeneriffic.

Rook : Something like this seems like what I described in my last post. Lots of texture work, as in, creating 3d layers of texture and color etc and an "ambient occlusion" shader for the shading in the recesses.. and rendering them out.  I would guess this is 1 light, probably a "directional" or "point" light and sitting in a 3d scene that is lit by Global Illumination with shadows turned on.
(maybe 3 point lighting scenario?, but I'm not sure.) In very basic terms, GI is like turning on a setting that simulates the sun, or moon, or some type of environment,
or extracting light information for your scene from an image " HDRI" etc.. Not always easy to tell as the results are varied.  
For example, this guy has some sick photo real lighting.   This is CG by the way... http://www.mikeanash.com/ Pretty awesome modeler too.
You can see the background images he is using for "GI " or "HDRI" to extract light in the photo for his 3d scene.  
(I'm aware I'm generalizing through this post for all of you lighters out there)

I think Rick may post here? I have never seen a wip from him. I usually can't get my jaw closed to check out anything else after I look at his stuff.  

No more novels for me.  I quit nerding.   Eagerly waiting to see more of your paint. After the Taco, I want to see more 
Cheers dude.

[srmalloy]

A great way to see this easily and have it right next to you while you model/practice, is this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Paint-Citadel-Miniatures-Rick-Priestley/dp/1841543667
(Not sure why it's so expensive here?, I got one pretty cheap)  It REALLY explains the technique well with accurate pics.
Even though the book is mostly hand painting, it's worth it, as you can take the technique right from hand painting through airbrushing.

Citadel has released a new edition of the book for 2012; Amazon lists it here. The new book is spiral-bound and designed to be turned sideways and stood up to use as a reference while you work, which makes it more convenient than pinning it open with something heavy (although I'm sure there would be places where you'd want a third hand to flip pages while you're painting):

Dark's WIP

I expect that the high prices you're seeing for the older edition are just the eternal "Out of print? Jack up the price and see who really wants one!" attitude preying on people who lack sufficient Google-fu to find the new edition.

[srmalloy]

For a 28mm mini to have contrast so it can stand out you have to exaggeration and stretch the highlights and the shadows until its no longer realistic, its just somethin you have to do to get a nice looking model. I linked Aliaume's stuff not because I thought it was realistic, but because I find his stuff more realistic than alot of the tanks and GK i see (and i love his stylised paintjobs ), his lighting is very exaggerated and stylised but at least he is working with a light source, alot of finished GK I see tend to have the same light value from top to bottom.

You also run up against the 'scale effect' zealots; their premise is that to increase the realism of the paint job, you need to fade the colors to make it look realistic, because with, say, a 1/100 model being viewed at a distance of two feet, you're seeing the model at the same size as the original would appear at a distance of 200 feet, and you have to mimic the way that the atmosphere fades and blues colors with increasing distance for the paint job to look realistic. There is, however, a sizeable community who believe that, for larger scales (and the cutoff varies) that the effect is too subtle to notice under all the weathering and other effects layered on the base paint job, but most will agree that at 1/72 or below the effect is significant enough to allow for.

[Darkmessiah]

wow, that sounds... unnecessarily complicated!

more work on the temptor, quite close to gettin all the blue done, will need to adjust the global lighting when done

Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

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Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

[Darkmessiah]

made a start on the white,

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will be stretching the lights/shadows, not sold on it at all at the moment, only real consolation i have is i know the weathering will make it look alot better and all i really need to worry about is the contrast and light postion. need to convince myself a bit more first though

[Will Vale]

The torso, legs and right arm are the business, I love the shading on the left boot!

The only bit that doesn't work for me is the left shoulder pad. It might be the lighting in the photo, but I think making the small top face lighter, and slightly lightening the section where the 5 spikes are to about the mid-tone would look better. Caveat: this is not an expert opinion

[Darkmessiah]

very close to being finished with the acrylics on the white, theirs been alot of frustration today with it, so I might just down tools for the day. i need to soften the shadows on the inside of the back leg and then ill be moving on to deepening/brightening the shadows and highlights with oils

@will - ill be coming back to the blue as iv oversprayed on to it in some areas, so ill have a look at the pad whilst am doing that :)

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[MGmodeler]

WOW I've missed this thread!  Great links and info on painting techniques from everybody.
Now to put words into action like Darkmessiah has    Your progress looks great.  How big is the overall size of the figure???

[Darkmessiah]

WOW I've missed this thread!  Great links and info on painting techniques from everybody.
Now to put words into action like Darkmessiah has    Your progress looks great.  How big is the overall size of the figure???

nw fella :)

by GK standards he is pretty puny! about 80mm

[Darkmessiah]

right, lets get some updates up!

the white and blue have now been officially lit, correcting over spray, defining and edge highlighting at the moment (mainly his left), on to the blue 2morro and probably ill be gettin the lines painted on, the weekend should be seeing chips and oils.

Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

only real concern at the moment (apart from having so little time!) is the eyes, I am planning on doing them in osl, however that colour should be orange, but iv only ever seen it done well once Scott's Night Lord and its not a colour iv ever really used, so yea, its thrown me a bit!

quick pic of trial with chips and oils

Dark's WIP

[struschie]

Great dynamic base - I love your trial results...!

[Darkmessiah]

right progress! i have defined and edge highlighted all the parts I can do at the moment iv lobbed some little bits of freehand down and finally started chipping this SOB! am really happy am at this stage because I know the chipping and oils is somethin I can do quickly and very well. Am still stuck on colours/effects for the column and the eagle, any ideas, let me know :)

Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

Dark's WIP

[Will Vale]

The legs and the entire rear view look fantastic, it's cool to see how the small scale highlighting is integrated with the large scale work you did earlier. I wouldn't have expected the luminous blues to look so nice with the chips, but they really work - maybe it's the white providing some kind of visual buffer? This is all very educational for me, thanks for posting!

On the column, I'm not sure. I like what you've done with the broken concrete, it's full of energy and weight. Compared to that the column seems a bit weedy and Classical and maybe doesn't fit so well with the 40K Gothic aesthetic so well. I can see it's a good compositional element though. Could you replace it with a flagpole with a narrow pennant streaming out behind the figure following the bend of the concrete? Or would that be super-cheesy?

Will